INTERVIEW: FRONTLINE, May 20 - June 02, 2006

`We are happy

but not complacent'

Q:What are your feelings on the Left Front's huge victory in the Assembly elections?

JYOTI BASU :

I am extremely happy that we have got a two-thirds majority, with more votes and more seats. Before our State secretary Anil Biswas passed away... I was very happy to hear him say that we would win this time with more votes and more seats. I took up his statement in the meetings that I addressed... I told people that I wanted to see the seventh Left Front government and requested voters to make it happen... Seven times in a row - this has happened nowhere else in India before. ... But first of all, I am thankful to the people of West Bengal, and not just to those who voted for us, for making it such a peaceful election, like all elections since 1977, and we have been praised by the Election Commission.

But why five-phased elections, I haven't yet understood. I feel it was an insult to the people of West Bengal. And we maintained that they would give a fitting reply to the E.C. [Election Commission]. That has also happened.

I have also been saying in speeches that in parliamentary democracy, the Opposition is very important, whether big or small. But it should be a responsible Opposition. I have requested the Opposition in my speeches that we should get together to pass resolutions unitedly the Assembly. But being the Opposition of course it is their duty to oppose the policies they think are anti-people. We in our turn will go to the people to tell them of our programmes, and finally let the people be the ultimate judge. But of course, we don't have a responsible Opposition yet. With this huge mandate, our responsibility has grown.

We are happy and rejoicing, but we are not complacent. We were able to implement 90 per cent of the projects we undertook in the last government. The remaining 10 per cent, for one reason or another we could not achieve - maybe [the] Central government was responsible, maybe we were. That has to be seen to. You see, we never hide anything from the people, even our negative points. We ask our workers to listen to the criticism against us and if there is anything positive that can be done, then it has to be done. If not, then the people should be told so directly. This is the job of the people's representatives in the panchayats and municipalities...

After we won the election in 1977 a huge crowd had gathered to greet us. I told them then that we would not rule from Writers' Buildings [the main State Secretariat] alone but also with the people. The same policy is being pursued. When I decided to retire on grounds of my failing health we created the post of Deputy Chief Minister, which went to Buddhadeb [Bhattacharjee]. He has done well and has led the team properly. He has been accepted not only by the party, but also by the people.

Q: When neoliberal policies are being pursued at the Centre, what challenges will the CPI(M) face in both supporting the UPA government at the Centre, and protecting the interests of the working class, trade unions and the small farmers?

JYOTI BASU:

This is a peculiar political situation in India now. The Congress - we have been fighting it for 45 years. We are now supporting it at the Centre - but on condition of implementing of the Common Minimum Programme [CMP]. Unfortunately we are not happy with all their economic policies and foreign policies. We have always supported the Congress non-aligned foreign policy from [Jawaharlal] Nehru's time down to Indira Gandhi's. But we feel they have abandoned that way, and dependence on America is growing. We don't like it at all. We have said, for example, in profitable industries, foreigners must not get the majority share. [Prime Minister] Dr Manmohan Singh, earlier when he was the Union Finance Minister, started following the advice of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund [IMF]. That must not happen, for these organisations are not always correct in their assessments. Some of the Congress recent economic policies, such as the privatisation of airports and so on we find to be anti-people. Now that the elections are over, we will meet and review how much they have digressed from the CMP, both in economic policies and in foreign policy.

It is clearly written in the CMP that we will pursue an independent foreign policy, but they are leaning on the side of the U.S. [United States], the World Bank and the IMF, who are not always correct. As I have said, there are always conditionalities attached. While we want foreign investments, which will be of mutual interest, generate employment and spread knowledge, we will not accept any conditionalities.

To give you an example, when I was Chief Minister, we asked the World Bank to lend us Rs.900 crores for infrastructure and road development. At that time I went to Washington. They gave me a good lunch, spoke very well, and I thought that the project was happening. But after three months a World Bank team came and asked the Finance Minister to show them the finance budget. He said they were welcome to see the budget that has been passed, but it would be illegal to show them the State's future budget. So we didn't get that money, and had to borrow Rs.500 crores from the Asian Development Bank.

In 1994, when I was Chief Minister, I placed a statement on our industrial policy on the floor of the Assembly that was accepted by the Left parties, and we have been pursuing that. We emerged first in agriculture, fisheries and social forestry, but we were not progressing in industry, where we were the best among the States at one time. Now I think we are fourth. But we are not to be blamed for that. It was the Congress government's licensing policy and freight equalisation policy of iron, steel and coal, the foundation of all industries, that set us back.

Q: What are your views on the reformist agenda followed by the Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee government?

JYOTI BASU :

I don't know why newspapers go on writing that some of us are against reforms. We are not against reforms. Buddha, in the time of the last government went abroad a few times to get investments into the State; I went to Munich twice to get Siemens here; I went to Holland to [see] Philips for them to expand their activities here. Abroad too, I found, there was propaganda against us; industries should think twice before investing in West Bengal because they strike work all the time. This is very incorrect. It is true, we have given the right to strike not only to workers, but also to government employees, which is prevalent nowhere else in India. But there have been no major strikes in the last 30 years. We keep telling the workers that it is in their interest to look after the industry, if you have demands then place them in front of the management. If there is no agreement then come to the government. Our Labour Department will look into it. But if the management does not listen to legitimate demands, then you can go on strike. We shall never send the police to break up a justified strike.

As for reforms, what is the panchayat system? Is that not a major reform? More than 70 per cent of our people live in the countryside. Take the case of [the] Haldia Petrochemicals complex, a project worth over Rs.5,000 crores. I had to wait for 11 years to get permission from the Central government. That project is making huge profits now, and more than 70,000 people are getting employment in the downstream industries. I remember there was an electronic project that Indira Gandhi had promised to help us with. After keeping me waiting for one year she said that her officers, who had set up a committee to look into this matter, unanimously told her that no investment in electronics should be made in West Bengal, because it is a border State. Ridiculous!

But there is no denying the fact that poverty is still here. Quite some time ago there was a report by the World Bank, which said that 53 per cent of the people of West Bengal live below the poverty line. This was brought down to 23 per cent a few years ago. I don't know exactly what it is now. Unemployment is a very serious issue all over India. Our government has laid a lot of stress on dealing with this problem and the results are showing. The Salim Group has come from Indonesia, the Tatas will be manufacturing their Rs.1 lakh car here, Wipro is here. We are trying to promote small and medium industries to meet the unemployment situation. But our infrastructure is not that good. The seventh Left Front government will have to remedy this.

These are all reforms, and the whole process of reforms started from 1977. So I don't understand what the newpapers mean when they talk about us as anti-reformists.

Q: Soon after the victory you said that Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee's role at the Centre should increase. Could you elaborate on that?

JYOTI BASU : We have won not only in West Bengal, but in Kerala also, and very convincingly. So the Left is strengthened, and the Congress-led government depends on the Left's support, because we are in a position to throw them out of power any time. But we don't want to do that, and we are having our Polit Bureau meeting [May 27 - 28] to discuss the situation. Personally, it is getting very difficult for me and I shall ask them to release me, but I know they won't do that. This time our meeting will be on our relationship with the Centre.

Q: You were the longest-serving Chief Minister in the country. Please tell us something of the changes that have occured in the CPI(M) and the Left Front since coming to power in 1977.

JYOTI BASU :

The Communist Party split in 1964, and our party, the CPI(M), came into being. Our policy was to unite Left forces. Earlier also we had formed coalitions to form governments with some leaders who had left the Congress and formed a new party called the Bangla Congress. That government lasted for nine months and then 13 months. In 1971, when the Bangladesh War was on, we put up a great performance, and that too at a time when Indira Gandhi's popularity was at its highest, and she was winning wherever elections were held. At that time we tried to unite the Left parties and that had a great effect on the people. There has been a change in our party constitution. We are working in a capitalist system in a parliamentary democracy and we should take whatever little advantage [there is] from that system to come closer to our goals, which is of course far away. I don't know whether it will take 50 years or 100 years for a classless society without exploitation to come into being.

We are also looking at what is happening in China. The Communist government was set up there one year after our Independence. What they are doing is Marxism-Leninism with Chinese characteristics. That is essentially Marxism, for nowhere has Marx said that the pattern should be the same everywhere. We are studying the Chinese system, we have been to China and met their leaders and we want China to come here too. In fact, China is setting up a power project in one of our districts, and the power [it will produce] is expected to be among the cheapest in the country. We want more trade between India and West Bengal and China.

The sixth government also laid a lot of stress on the diversification of agriculture and food processing. Though not much advance has been made in that field, the seventh Left government will complete that process.

Q: What is the future of the Left in Indian politics?

JYOTI BASU : In the last party congress held in New Delhi, we got reports from all the States. It is very unfortunate that though we are very strong in three States, in some of the other States, even though we have good mass organisations, the party is not strong. We took a decision that, from the position we occupy in Central politics now, we should strengthen our party and mass organisation, for strengthening only the party will not help. Unfortunately, mass organisations are not there in most parts of India, but of late there has been some growth, for example this time in Tamil Nadu we got nine seats. But that is not enough. We have to advance in for instance, places like Uttar Pradesh and Madhaya Pradesh, [where] we hardly have any base.

Q: So how long do you think it will be before there is a Left government at the Centre?

JYOTI BASU : I don't know if I will be alive to see that [smiles]. I don't think it will be possible in the immediate future, but an attempt has to be made to strengthen ourselves and also talk to other non-communal parties. The older generation has seen us in the Opposition here, they have also seen the amount of repression we had to suffer. Our party was declared illegal after Independence in 1948. Most leaders were jailed or went underground. Then, after the High Court gave us legal status, we contested the first elections in 1952, and, without practically any organisation, we got 28 seats. I think at that time there were 280 seats in the Assembly. Since then we have been growing. There was a time when we thought that no Left government would be allowed. In fact, E.M.S. Namboodirpad was removed from office in Kerala by Jawaharlal Nehru and President's Rule was imposed. Indira Gandhi was the president of the Congress. But we never gave up. But our one defect has been that the Marxism-Leninism we talk about [has] not spread among the younger generation. But all that has started [to] change. It is very important to raise their consciousness.

Interview taken by SUHRID SANKAR CHATTOPADHYAY

Published on FRONTLINE, Vol. 23 :: No. 10

May. 20 - Jun. 02, 2006

INTERVIEW by M J AKBAR , 1997

“But it is a political blunder.

It is a historic blunder.” : Jyoti Basu

Interview taken by M J Akbar

published on 2nd January,1997

Q. In my view the high point of the year was not the appointment of the Prime Minister, but the disappointment on the day on which you refused to become Prime Minster.

A. (Laughs) Some people say that....including Hasina (Sheikh Hasina, Prime Minster of Bangladesh). Q. One of her aides said that you were the only Indian politician that Bangladesh trusted.A. (Smiles) I have known her for a long while; I knew her father... One good thing has happened. Earlier when I went, for the first time, in '87, Ershad was there, he invited me and I saw my ancestral place, my mother's house. But President Ershad used. to say that unless you are anti-India you have no place in Bangladesh politics. I said, why? Our Army and people helped you in 1971 for liberation. He said, whatever be the arguments you might give, this is the position. But this time when Hasina came to Delhi - I was with her of course before she made a very good speech at the formal banquet. I think for the first time in many years she talked about the sacrifices of the Indian soldiers, and how the Indian people gave shelter here to refugees from Bangladesh. It was a very, very good speech and recognised what happened at that time. The Indian Army even trained their boys. The boys also fought: there is no doubt about that, but the Indian Army trained them. So this is a big change in the political view. And at the SAFTA meeting the Bangladesh trade minister spoke very well. So there is a perceptible change. Now we have to follow up by action in trade, commerce, culture. I told them that we (the elders) know about the true culture of Bangladesh, because our ancestors were from that side but our younger generation does not know anything. That is bad. They have done so much for the Bengali language. We are going to start, I think, a bus service from Calcutta to Dhaka and Dhaka to Calcutta. We have calculated that it will also mean profit for them- But the young must meet one another. Do you know that they do not wear burqa and all that, and these girls in Bangladesh sing Rabindrashangeet better than us. I was surprised. I made this point when I spoke at Stratford-upon-Avon (while unveiling Rabindranath's bust in Shakespeare's birthplace) that there is no other case like this in history where one poet has written the national anthem of two countries.

Q. 1971 was a people's liberation movement in Bangladesh, but the Establishment was pro-Pakistan. And the Establishment bided its time and took revenge upon the victors of 1971.

A. But even now I am told that the situation is not, well...

Q. We can come back to this later, Sir, but I would like to jog your memory and ask you what precisely happened when you were offered the chance to become Prime Minister India.

A. Well, you understand - it is not good, but in India we have reached a situation where, knowing fully well who I am, what my philosophy is, what my beliefs are, they invited me, all of them together, unanimously, to sit on the Prime Minister's chair. Because there was nobody else, they said, to stop the BJP and so on.

Q. Who were "they"?

A. All of them. We said no, our (party) policy has been different. But they said, 'You have been talking of a Third Alternative, your party has been the main architect of this concept, and now you are saying that you will not take this responsibility.' In fact, in the midst of the election campaign, at the later stage, they sent us a message that we should not go on saying at every meeting that we will not join the government, that people are talking about a Third Alternative and we will think about it when the time comes. Then we said we can't do it because our central committee resolution (preventing us from joining a government in Delhi) stands. So we called an emergency meeting of the central committee and there, by a majority - I don't know how many votes, 35 to 20 or something like that - the decision was made (to keep out). I was in the minority. Surjeet (Harkishen Singh Surjeet) was also in the minority, I can tell you that.We went back to them (the United Front leaders) and said this is the decision. They were waiting. We said, we will help you. We will have a Steering Committee, we will have a Common Minimum Programme which we did not have during the Janata days. They were not convinced. They said, you please discuss again. I said that already eight central committee members have left town. I said, very good, I know who voted for who since I was presiding, so we reconvened the meeting. I told the committee, we have come back to you. We counted, some few people changed their minds, but even then we were in a minority.

Q. What were the arguments used by those opposed to you being Prime Minister, like Sitaram Yechury and Prakash Karat?

A. The usual things (short laugh) like these are bourgeois parties... But we are with them... When V.P. Singh was there it was the same thing: BJP was there, and we told him that we cannot share a platform with you, but we will support you from outside. This lime the argument was that we have disparate elements, from various regions they have come, good thing 13 parties have got together. They have fought the BJP and Congress. We thought: do they have any differences? We say at the moment they do not have any differences, but at some point they will have to have differences. See that they have a common programme. That was our argument. Deve Gowda has not that experience. He may be a good man and that sort of thing...

Q. The real Prime Minister of India is being described as Mr Surjeet.

A. (Laughs) No ... (Turns assertive) Being in a minority what could he do (in the central committee)? What happened was that we formed a steering committee; he is a member, I am a member too. I can't come to Delhi so often, so he is active ... However, that was the argument of the majority of the central committee. The minority thinking was: since we have the experience, we know these people, we can keep them together for as long as possible. If we were there we would see that the programmes would be some what carried out, much better than what they would do if we were not there in the government. This was the main argument: that. they would not be able to carry out the programme. because their thinking is different. Our argument was: this cannot last rive years. If we are there, much more than the others we can make them accept some policies, put them before the country, whatever the limits are. You can't remove every obstacle, that is not possible: but we could do something for self-reliance, for the countryside, for panchayats, all that we can push through. Anti-poverty programmes: it is there but it does not reach the people. That is what is happening in India. So we can do that much better. Of course, personally, I tell you (genuine relief in laughter), the majority has saved me, personally, because this would have been too much of a burden for me. Because of my health, nothing else. But it is a political blunder. It is a historic blunder.

Q. You have taken the next question out of my mouth.

A. I said in a BBC interview: they asked me this question. I said, what can I do? I am in a minority... I told Buddhadev Bhattacharya, you show this interview in the book fair we are having on the 29th of January...

Q. Was not the CPM aware that the whole strategy of the Indian Marxist movement has been since 1967 to first cooperate with the bourgeoisie parties: in Bengal you cooperated with Ajoy Mukherjee and Pranab Mukherjee...

A. For many years we had to do it.

Q. You evolved from United Front to Left Front.

A. If there is a division among them, whatever be the state, we can utilise that in the interests of the people. That has been our party congress resolution. But unfortunately in our party programme we talk about states: in section 112. Earlier we thought they would never allow us to function even in the states, but things changed. But we never discussed about the Centre, we thought it was absolutely a dream now, it would come later. But things have happened since then: in the Centre also we have to play a part. That is not in our party document, so we said we have to update that programme. Then the argument came: how do we support a central government, that is not in our programme.

Q. Today the situation is this: the Central government cannot survive one day without you, and you want power without responsibility.

A. We thought that such a combine cannot last for five years, so we cannot implement our programme. Then, we do not accept many of their (our partners') policies, they do not accept many of ours. But the minimum programme was there, and we could have implemented it much better than others. Because we have the experience, nothing more; nothing personal. We have been running a government with so many parties for the last twenty years. Earlier also we worked with Ajoy Mukherjee who came out of the Congress.

Q. Why did V. P. Singh refuse to become Prime Minister? He was the first choice, apparently.

A. Very ill.

Q. Cancer of the eve ?

A. And some-thing else with it. I think he is having dialysis every day. In fact I had sent him, as a last resort, a homeopathic doctor, Bhola Chakravorty. I think he has gone to America for treatment.

Q. How did Deve Gowda emerge suddenly? He was the darkest of the horses. Did you not think of someone who has been in national politics longer, like his rival Rama Krishna Hegde?

A. Here the difficulty was that even before the election campaign Hegde, made a statement that we must get together with the Congress. And you know they have a rivalry, they have two groups and so on. When we met in Delhi I said that you could have also taken up this job, but I don't know, you have your local differences ... this (statement about the Congress) went against him. He said that we must join the Congress to form a government at the Centre. Later on he said he had changed, but we don't know. Gowda also has the majority in Karnataka, there is no doubt about that. Hegde is a very intelligent person, I have known him for a long, time. But there was nobody else.

Q. Didn't Laloo Yadav make a bid to become Prime Minister?

A. (Voice drops a little) Nobody thought of him.

Q. If the statement sabotaged Hegde, then is not there a contradiction because Deve Gowda is also lasting because of the Congress.

A. No, that was to stop the BJP. That is also part of our programme. The Congress also issued a four-line statement that we will not support the BJP. Then we went to the President. There was also... there were some difficulties there. We said, this is the statement, and these are our numbers, so you call Deve Gowda to form a government. He said, no, this is not enough: the Congress has said we will not support the BJP, but has it said that it will support this formation? (Laughs softly).

Q. Was the President using a technicality?

A. Quite legitimately. Then a message was sent to the Congress: I think Deve Gowda himself took the message. The President also told Deve Gowda to meet Narasimha Rao, ask whether Congress will support him. But it should be unconditional support, otherwise nothing happens. Deve Gowda went, then at half past one they passed this resolution. It is a mystery what happened to that resolution for a few hours. Within these few hours, the first party, the BJP, was given the opportunity to form the government. We told the President, very good, you have given them the opportunity but why have you given them so much time? He should have given them only seven days time to get a vote of confidence. That, he (the President) didn't reply to us. So the 13-day government was there. And then the Congress gave unconditional support.

Q. Did you ever feel that the Tamil Manila Congress would go with the BJP during this period?

A. No. The BJP has nothing there in Tamil Nadu. There may be a question of them going back to the Congress, but they have not decided.Q. Did you know that when your name was proposed for Prime Minister, the Congress was very upset and was in the process of getting MPs to say you would not be acceptable?A. Why? I thought Narasimha Rao was a good friend of mine (laughs). Because he thought the government might get permanency or something....It may be that; I don't know...

Q. Do You think the CPI compromised the Left by joining the government?

A. I do not think so. But again this is a minority view. (Short laugh). But it has not affected our Left Front. In Delhi we often meet; that has not been adversely affected. But what is happening now is: the other day Deve Gowda called me, for some personal discussion and I told him, why do you bother how long you will be there? What you have promised the people in the minimum programme, carry it out. He had two good meetings, one with the chief ministers on the basic needs of the people, the other on public distribution system. There are many others: power, roads, health. This should immediately be done. Reduce the prices by fifty per cent; this will be a good message to millions of people.

Q. His finance minister will not allow it.

A. No, no, no: this he will allow. He has to. This is a unanimous decision. And all the centrally-sponsored schemes should be transferred to the states along with the funds: in the Congress time also there was such a decision but it has never been carried out. Now that has started happening. Just started: I don't day that the process is complete. So I told him this time when I met him, you do these things: it will have a big impact on the vast majority of the poorer sections, and they are the majority. And I told him, why do you have so much fear of foreigners? When they come for business they come for business. Why is America doing business with China? They come for profits. Now if it helps us, we accept that: we have not got the technology which we need; we don't want to be backward, all that is all right. But we should not be afraid of them so much and listen to their advice. They tell, us for instance, about not giving subsidy. Why does America give subsidy? Hundreds of millions of dollars to its farmers.

Q. To come to the larger question: how long do you think the Deve Gowda government will last? Minority governments do not have a history of survival in Delhi.

A. It cannot: that we are clear; about the negative part we are clear. But how long it will last, the positive part, that I cannot say. I told Deve Gowda, why should you bother. This is a very critical situation. Let the Congress combine and put its house in order. But in the meanwhile, budgets are coming; you have a very good Planning Commission, very good people. Madhu Dandavate is in charge. The Ninth Plan is coming soon. It is ready; yesterday we were supposed to get it. A meeting has been called on that. I said, you carry on with all this. Later on, if you are thrown out, you are thrown out. If we are still together then, then it is a sort of election manifesto for you.

Q. Can you envisage a coalition with the Congress?

A. That we cannot think of at the moment. The Congress - some of them I know very well; sometimes they telephone me and so on. I say, 'Look, in the earlier days, in Nehru's time, sometimes even in Indira's time, there were discussions in the Congress. On economic policies, politics, social policies and so on. But nowadays you people don't discuss anything. I can't understand this.' (Laughs) they say Narora or something like that... I said, discuss, let people know where you stand. I tell Congressmen, you have a lot of experience on economic policies, from '91-'92: what lessons should we draw? Some negative things are there; maybe some positive things are also there. Let the country hear. And then only can we think of talking to you. Otherwise if you don't change your policies, if you think all your policies are all right, then how can we discuss. And you are wholly divided; your only point is that someone wants to become minister, get hold of the government: this will not help. Discussion on policy matters is very, very important, I have been telling them. I don't know what they are going to do now: unanimous resolution or something...

Q. But how is Deve Gowda any different from a Congress prime minister?

A. As I said, in economic thinking and all that I don't think he differs that much.

Q. And the finance minister, Mr Chidambaram, sounds more rightwing than Dr Manmohan Singh.

A. He is a little rigid, according to me. Of course, I don't know him personally, but I have met him on some issues. In some ways of course he has helped, but he tends to be rigid. On Centre-state relations, a committee has been set up: Sarkaria report is there, our documents are there. This is very important for India. And Kashmir: I said, give them whatever they want, within India. What is wrong with it, nothing is wrong with it. Karan Singh came to me the other day. He has been made chairman of some committee that is dealing with autonomy. I said, you please don't recommend for different parts of Kashmir to become separate states. One Kashmir, and within that the other two regions should also get autonomy, as much autonomy as you can give them, keeping one or two subjects with the Centre. And some restoration of what was taken away earlier, what you had given to the Kashmiris. Kashmiris have lost faith in India and Congress is responsible for that. Unnecessarily in 1983 Indira drove out Farooq. I told her this man - I came to know him just now, after he became the chief minister, we had meetings in Srinagar and so on - is saying that I am an Indian, I don't belong to Pakistan, I will never go there, I am willing to say that from the housetops anywhere in India. Why don't you utilise what be is saying. She had other ideas. I said, if you don't have one government somewhere, just as you don't have a government in West Bengal, what does it matter? In a parliamentary system, in a federal system, things change. But she said, it is not that, whatever he tells you, he is doing something else. I said, you tell me, what is he doing? I'll go and tell him because I know him very well now. She wouldn't tell me. She said, I have some report... this, that. Then they start buying MLAs and make the worst person chief minister, G.M.Shah.

Q. Are you going to intervene in the Kashmir situation personally? You have the credibility to do so.

A. Personally, what can I do? I have not really met Farooq after he has won. I met him once, but not for long. Karan Singh has some other ideas: I told him clearly, look at the situation I am facing in Darjeeling just now. We had 'settled it long ago; it was a very good settlement which we thought would be a model. Then somebody makes a statement on Uttarakhand and passions are aroused.

Q. Even the CPM unit re has gone over to the Gorkhaland movement?

A. The majority has gone but some remain with us. A new committee is there.

Q. To go back to the national scene: Around the budget session there could be a serious effort to create a coalition government with the Congress. Parts of the United Front could merge with the Congress.

A. (Laughs) In India anything may happen, but we are not in it. We will see out position..

Q. There is a thought, vis a vis Kashmir that rather than taking away Article 370 the time may have come to give all states provisions of 370.

A. Maybe not Article 370. But that is what Centre-state relations mean; that is what we have been talking about. That is why we are not very satisfied with Justice Sarkaria's report, except the financial part. The political part remains to be resolved. And unless you have trust in the people, nothing positive is going to happen: India will break up. You see the North East, it is Army rule. Terrorism, insurrection, has resurfaced again. Once again it is the. Congress government which is responsible. They have succeeded in corrupting the North East. The tribal people are really not corrupt, but this is what has happened there.

Q. The last year has seen the courts, in a sense, set the agenda. How do you react to this development?

A. This is another point in parliamentary democracy: we have three wings, the legislature, the government and the judiciary. Now, like a military take-over it is a judicial take-over. For the time being it may be good, because there is no other alternative for anybody the way corruption is going. But in parliamentary democracy it is not correct. The balance must be there.

Q. You have a problem with the Congress, but not with those who left it, and in fact they are beginning to rejoin it. If today the Congress accepts the Common Minimum Programme of the United Front. will the CPM support a Congress government.

A. It is a big 'if.'

Q. The Congress will do anything to come to power Their MPs have not come to Delhi to drink coffee.

A. I can't discuss that because, as I have been telling you, why don't they spell out what their policy is? In Delhi they told their previous finance minister Manmohan Singh to write a document, a critique of what has been happening during this period of the United Front. It seems he wrote something which they did not like, because he said that it is a sort of continuation of what the Congress started. So they didn't like that; they wanted the government to be condemned. But he did not do it; he is an honest man. The Congress Party must tell us what is their policy, what are they going to do? You see the condition of the economy; they started all this. They thought it will advance the cause of India, but it has not. The rupee has gone down, exports have gone down, nothing is happening in the countryside. As for self-reliance, where is it? Nothing is there. That is why I say, Congress is they biggest party today even though its votes have gone down: if they discuss politics, economics, and this period - what has happened, what is to be done, where are the lessons from their experience, then one can think of talking to them.

Q. Do you take the Bengal -Congress seriously?

A. Bengal Congress we don't know.... groups...

Q. Do you see them as a serious force or as a collection of mavericks?

A. They still have votes there is no doubt about it, about 38 per cent of the votes.But again, no policies. Where is their manifesto? What will they do if they form the government? Nothing They don't tell the people. But even they get votes because, according to me, those people lack that consciousness. And negatives votes are always there: we have been in power for 20 years now. We can't solve everybody's problems.

Q. Twenty years: quite remarkable. Do you think the Bengal Congress will do a bit of a double cross and attack you in Bengal on the Farakka waters settlement with Bangladesh?

A. I told them in Delhi, your Congress had a Tin Bigha pact. It was an international pact between Mujib Rehman and Indira Gandhi, but you didn't do anything for years altogether. They would have gone to the United Nations. Then I told them, the then Congress government, to leave it to me. I don't want any police or anything from you,, but this must be done. Because we did not give them Berubari, so Mujib agreed that in lieu of it they should get Tin Bigha. That also created a difficulty for me before I went to Bangladesh, they were saying that Jyotibabu has done this Tin Bigha, he will solve the water problem also! (Laughs) I said, it is not so easy.

Q. What did Comrade Surjeet discuss with Mr Kesari when they met last week?

A. He has been meeting him: he asked whether Congress wanted to withdraw its support, or what....tell us. Until now, they have said that they are not in a position to withdraw. They (the Congress) say that you should also discuss with us, in Parliament and so on. Our view is: Surjeet and I both told Deve Gowda that in Parliament, if you are getting Congress support, and you are going to put the Budget; there is no harm in your discussing. In parliament politics, even opposition discusses with the government.

Q. So there will be co-ordination with the Congress in the next session?

A. In Parliament there should be.

Q. Just one point about the Farakka settlement: was your real problem in Dhaka or in Delhi?

A. I have been talking to our foreign minister, who wen to Dhaka. Our MPs also went, Somnath (Chatterjee) and Gita (Mukherjee). I have been telling them that you must look at it a little politically. And all these figures, this 40,000 cusecs and all that....Since 1988 you have not had any treaty with them. Up to 1988 you had a treaty on Farakka waters. Year after year you are talking to them. As far as the West Bengal government is concerned no on has talked to us. But let us look at this politically. Let us have some experts with us: how much of all this is true, what we are saying about how it will affect our Calcutta port. And there is no doubt that everything is drying up, in the Jessore area and so on. So, let us look at figures and options, why do we stick to these old ideas? So I said (to Delhi) I am going there, not as your representative but she (Hasina) has invited me, I am going. She has invited some of my other ministers also, I am taking them along and going. She sent me a message that she wants to discuss this Farakka water. That seems to be her main problem. Fundamentalists were after her blood. So, let us help her. Even now there are some 17 per cent Hindus there and they have some faith in her. So. let us see ... We took our experts, from here and from Delhi; our chief secretary, who has studied the issue very well. They carried on the discussion during the five -days we were there. and we saw from the figures that some people are talking things which are not correct. These 40,000 cusecs we got only once., we never got 40,000 cusecs except once. And now there is a guarantee for, us of 40,000 cusecs at least three times. And if the flow is less, an arrangement has been worked out. I told Hasina, for two years let us see what happens: how much you gain, how much I lose, let us see. She said, no, no this two year period will not help, let us have a longer treaty Ultimately it became one of 30 years.But then there is a clause that every five years it will be reviewed. Each has to suffer if there is less water, or gain if there is more water: but both have to share gains and losses. That two year period has also been included; after two years there will be review of what has happened. So my thing is also accepted. Let us see what happens. Then she said that after this other things will open out. You know, our industrialists went in a delegation to ask for the use of Chittagong port for supplies to the North East region. Other bigger things are there, but they won't come: gas etc ... very difficult. But trade has started very well, It is unequal trade of course; bound to be in the beginning: last year, I said at the Chamber of Commerce reception they gave me, we sent Rs 3470 crores worth of goods to Bangladesh, you sent only Rs 280 crores. I said, only eeleesh maach and jaamdani saree will not do; you have so many other things. They are very keen. But I hope our industrialists also behave properly. They have sent a memorandum to the government of India; they want the tariff to be reduced by 50 per cent on 40 or 50 items. That I think will be done by the government of India.

Q. If we have a government of India.

A. (Laughs.) As long as it goes on. That is our parliamentary democracy. What can you do about it?

Q. One last question, Sir. If you had become Prime Minister of India, who would have become chief minister of Bengal?

A. (Smiles.) That my party would have decided.

Q. But surely you would have had a view.

A. I cannot say... I told you the other things about our inner-party meetings, which we normally do not say (laughs) about who was a minority, who was a majority.But this I cannot tell you. It is the party which has decided whether I should be here, so I am here for twenty years.

Q. How many people in the world do you think would have so calmly, and without any rancour accepted a party decision and not become Prime Minister of the country?

A. (Laughs.) I can't take so much credit for myself.

Q. On that our case rests for naming you Man of the Year.

The Above Interview is Contributed by: M J AKBAR in 2nd January, 1997, Published in THE ASIAN AGE.

INTERVIEW WITH JYOTI BASU, DECEMBER,2005

21st June, 1977

The Left Front has provided

an alternative model

of government

Published in The Frontline,

Volume 22 - Issue 25, Dec. 03 - 16, 2005

Jyoti Basu, at 93, is active and engaged with the commitments that have ruled his life - Left politics and the concerns of West Bengal whose government he has headed for more than 25 years. Although he insists that he has retired from active politics, he continues to be a member of the Polit Bureau of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), he visits the party office on Alimuddin Street in Kolkata twice a week, he addresses meetings, and continues to meet comrades, friends and colleagues. Parvathi Menon met him for an extended interview over two days in his home in Kolkata. On both occasions he was in a relaxed mood, full of humour and good cheer.

The contributions of this distinguished son of modern India to the country's political and public life are manifold. For over 60 years he has helped build and give direction to the Communist movement in India. As the longest-serving Chief Minister in India, he crafted an alternative model of pro-people government in West Bengal, which has improved the conditions of life and work for a majority of its people, and brought the Left Front government to power in six consecutive elections. This experiment is an important contribution to the theory and practice of public administration in India.

In this interview, Jyoti Basu revisits some of the important events and issues of his life and times.

Excerpts:

Your political life has spanned eight decades of momentous change. Could you begin by telling our readers something about your early political influences.
Jyoti Basu: Although mine was a non-political family, I remember three events from the freedom movement that affected me and got me interested in politics. When I was sitting for the senior Cambridge examination in St. Xavier's School in Calcutta (as Kolkata was then called) in the 1930s, Gandhiji went on a fast. He called for a popular movement, and reading the papers I felt very bad. That day I told my father, who used to drop me at school every day, I did not feel like going to school. He understood without my telling him the reason. The second event was when Subhas Chandra Bose was to address a meeting in the Calcutta Maidan. A cousin and I wore khadi clothes and went for the meeting. It did not take place. Thousands of people were gathered when a lathicharge began. Subhas Bose was arrested. We thought that since we were wearing khadi we should not run away. So we walked away and got a baton charge from an Anglo Indian sergeant. The third event that influenced me was the Chittagong Armoury raid, which took place in 1930. For one or two days Chittagong was in the hands of those who were fighting for freedom with arms. They then had to retreat and fight from the hills. At that time I had a tiff with my Anglo-Indian and British friends who were studying in St. Xavier's, because the Jesuit fathers had circulated a leaflet condemning the incident in Chittagong. I was supporting the rebels. I did not realise at the time how much these events affected me.

Could you describe your stay in England in the 1930s as a law student - the flavour of the times and the people and events that influenced you.
Jyoti Basu: I went to London in 1935, after passing my degree with honours from Presidency College. Those were stirring times of great upheaval. I got interested in politics and in the freedom movement in our country. Students in Oxford, Cambridge, and the London School of Economics were discussing all this. Communist leaders in India - Muzaffar Ahmad in particular - were in touch with the Communist Party of Great Britain, the CPGB. Later on I heard that he sent the party a message asking the CPGB not to mix with "our boys", those who wanted to come back and work for the Communist Party in India as wholetimers, because they would then be kept under police watch. Before us, people like Hiren Mukherji and Sajjad Zaheer had decided to come back and work for the party.

We formed the All Great Britain Indian Students Federation, and the London Majlis, of which I was elected general secretary. Our job was to hold meetings, and when people like Nehru, Subhas Chandra Bose, Bhulabhai Desai, Vijaylakshmi Pandit and other leaders went to London, we held receptions in their honour. There was Krishna Menon of the India League, which we joined and became very active in.

Then there was Bhupesh Gupta, who later joined the Communist Party of India after the party split in 1964. We stayed together in the same house for quite some time and he inspired me a lot. He was part of a group of freedom fighters who believed in armed insurrection and was imprisoned in a district in Bengal, from where he passed his B.A. and got interested in Marxism. His father got him out but was told that his passport is only for England. Mohan Kumaramangalam, his sister Parvathi, and his brothers were there. They too wanted to come back and do wholetime party work, although Kumaramangalam later joined the Congress and became a Minister. Rajni Patel from Bombay, who was in England at that time, also joined the Congress and later quarreled with the Congress too! P.N. Haksar, who later became the adviser to Indira Gandhi, became a party wholetimer when he came back to India. Feroze Gandhi was there at that time. So was Indira who was very ill at that time. She sometimes used to come to our London Majlis meetings. She and Feroze were in love. They faced some trouble getting married as Nehru objected to the marriage, and agreed only after Gandhiji spoke to him.

The CPGB was small but really supported our independence. The party organised classes for us. During holidays, if we did not go abroad, students from Oxford, Cambridge and other universities used to meet. Harold Laski was there, a fine orator and speaker. So was Palme Dutt and his brother Clemens Dutt. Palme Dutt was well-informed on developments in India, and was in charge of India reporting for the Third International. It was through him that we knew what was happening there.

All these events influenced me.
In 1933, Hitler had come to power, and his slogan was `Germany today, the world tomorrow'. The Fascist Party was also born at that time in London. Abyssinia was attacked by Mussolini. His Fascist Party was formed in 1922. Japan had attacked China. In Spain there was civil war. We were very happy when Krishna Menon arranged for Nehru to go and shake hands with the Spanish Republicans. The Third International had called for the formation of an International Brigade to fight fascism in Spain. The French closed their borders and would not allow arms to be sent to Spain. Dolores Ibarruri, the general secretary of the Spanish Communist Party, was living in Paris. We in England wanted to give her a reception. However, the French government said that she would attend meetings, but would not be allowed to speak. So Nehru went to France to meet her, which inspired us a lot.

We organised a club in the East End in London, a very poor area, to teach English to illegal Bangladeshi migrants, particularly from Sylhet, who abandoned their ships and stayed on in London. They did not even know how to read and write their own language, let alone English. To get jobs, they needed at the very least to read road signs in English. Some of them even married British girls. This was a big thing for us, and we used to go every day to teach them.

Those were very exciting times. When we told Pandit Nehru - who was a little short-tempered - that many of us from different States of India believed in socialism, he said that we must first get independence and then we could think about all that. Subhas Bose, who was there for health reasons, gave lectures and met people from the CPGB. I remember when we told him that we wanted to become party wholetimers, he said it was good, though "politics is not a bed of roses". That I understand now, after 65 years in politics.

You were on the frontlines of the action during those eventful years of the 1940s that saw the final push for independence. Would you describe those years and the role played by the Left in the winning of Independence, especially in Bengal.
Jyoti Basu: I returned to Calcutta on January 1, 1940 and became a member of the party two days later. The Second World War had started in 1939. I had finished the first part of my law degree. I wrote the second part in December, and returned without waiting for my results. In Calcutta I heard that I had got through.

Our party wanted to use me to keep contact with the underground party. I used to do all kinds of work - based on the platform of the Students Federation, I used to speak at meetings, go to different places to keep contacts, and so on.

Our party knew that the Congress was leading the freedom movement everywhere, including Bengal. And so some of our top leaders - not me of course, but Muzaffar Ahmad and others - were also members of the Congress. Our party used to work amongst the peasants and the workers mostly.

When the Soviet Union was attacked by Germany in 1941, we had a lot of discussion in the party and came to the conclusion, like the CPGB, that the imperialist war had become a People's War and we would support the Allied war effort. Our poet, Rabindranath Tagore, was alive then, and he was very upset at the attack on the Soviet Union. He had been to the Soviet Union and had been welcomed there. He was almost on his death-bed, but he said that the Soviets must never lose, as without them civilisation in the world was threatened. With his support and blessings we formed the Friends of the Soviet Union of which I was the general secretary. That platform helped us.

The British released many of us from jail because at that time we did not support the 1942 Quit India movement. We said that fascism must be defeated and we would not engage in actions that would adversely affect the war effort. Nehru and others said that they too were anti-fascist, but without freedom they could not fight fascism. The Quit India call was given by Gandhi. Our party could fortunately work legally for three or four years.

Because we did not support the 1942 movement, we got completely isolated from the people. But in 1943, the Great Bengal Famine came, and with our little organisation (when I joined, the party had only 5,000 members), we worked for the famine-stricken people in the villages and towns. Thirty lakhs died because of famine. Although our work made us popular and our strength increased, we continued to be isolated politically.

In 1944, my party asked me to do trade union work. I first worked for the port and dock union. I then started building a railway union in the Bengal Assam Railway. We built a powerful union, the B.N. Railway Workers Union. In 1946, I got elected from the Railway Constituency to the government formed by the Muslim League under Suhrawardy.

The riots of 1946, the likes of which we had never seen, broke out. August 16, 1946 was Direct Action Day. In seven or eight days thousands of people - men, women and children - had been killed. I have never seen anything like that. When Suhrawardy thought it was getting out of hand, he wanted to organise a peace committee. The Communists were in the forefront of the campaign for peace. Bhupesh Gupta and I went to his house in a jeep with red flags. Shyama Prasad Mookerjee, the leader of the Hindu Mahasabha, was there; so were Suhrawardy's colleagues from the Muslim League whom he addressed outside while we sat in his sitting room. He came in and told us that Shyama Prasad made it clear that he would not join a peace rally if the Communists were part of it. He then laughingly told us that he and Shyama Prasad had organised the riots. About Shyama Prasad, I think it was not right.

Then Gandhiji came to Calcutta. Bhupesh and I met him and asked for his advice on how to stop the rioting. He told us that in his experience if even a small procession could be organised of Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs during riots, it usually helped to bring calm. We tried it, but within five minutes the procession had to be disbursed. People did not even listen to Gandhiji. Then the terrible Noakhali riots broke out and he rushed to East Bengal, camped there, and stopped the riots.

Then came 1947, and Independence. We had our second party congress and B.T. Ranadive became general secretary after P.C. Joshi. Mohan Kumaramangalam was also with us and spoke at the meeting. I was against the resolution passed on the political situation, which I thought was ultra-left.

The Left played a very decisive role in the freedom movement. In 1946, the naval ratings in Bombay went on strike. The British admiral said that unless the ratings joined duty within 24 hours he would bomb rebel ships from above. We had a political strike for 24 hours in the railways during this time.

Your memoirs and other histories describe the central part played by the Communist Party and its mass organisations in the struggle for food for the people. It was true of the famine years and of the struggles of the 1960s. It is a struggle that has been resumed in the 2000s. Would you comment on this aspect of Left-led struggle in India.
Jyoti Basu: Although we were for some time in 1942-43 isolated politically from the people, they came to know about us through the social work we did amongst them. We tried to build little social organisations and went amongst the people, trying to get food to them and to save the sick by taking doctors to the area. We formed a doctors' association. That paid dividends despite the fact that we were politically isolated. We were not a very powerful party, but the people appreciated our help for the famine-stricken through our work in several organisations. Thirty lakh people died in that famine.

It was not only in 1943, you took up this issue again and again.
Jyoti Basu: Yes, we took it up again in 1946. By then our party was legal, and we worked in the districts. We worked though the mass organisations we strengthened after Independence - the trade unions, the Kisan Sabha, the Students Federation and women's organisations. Sixty lakh refugees came when East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) was divided from Pakistan. Gandhi had formed a committee for [Partition] refugees, in which I was a member. We fought for them, and were imprisoned because of that. Congressman Dr. B.C. Roy asked us: "Why you are fighting? This is the Centre's job." Nehru had promised refugees citizenship rights but nothing much was done for East Bengal refugees. In Punjab everything was done for the 24 lakh refugees. Here it was 60 lakhs.

After the second party congress in 1948, our party was declared illegal, and all of us were suddenly arrested and detained without trial. In Bengal, there was a committee of Judges headed by the Chief Justice, and we could appeal to that. Around 44-45 Communists, myself amongst them, were in the same prison. I and a few others were released after this application we made. In 1949, I went underground again as I heard that an arrest warrant had been issued against me. After a year or so, I was arrested again. By then the Constitution had been framed, and under it we went to the High Court for legalising the party and won the case. So our party became legal. I remained an MLA [Member of the Legislative Assembly] till 1952 when the first general elections in independent India were held. Although we had no offices and our organisations were smashed, we still managed to get 28 Communists elected.

By any objective measure, the Left Front government in Bengal has registered remarkable successes in pro-people governance within the framework of the Indian Constitution. In what way has the experience of Left Front rule advanced the goals of the Communist movement in India?
Jyoti Basu: The first matter on our programme was to bring in a three-tiered panchayat. We also decided on reservation for women, and the Scheduled Castes and Tribes in the panchayats. When Rajiv Gandhi was the Prime Minister he came to Calcutta for an Eastern Region Panchayats Conference. He complimented us on our panchayat system as there were no panchayats in Congress-ruled States. He complimented us on the panchayats. I asked him why he could not form panchayats in States that were under the Congress. He said that nobody would do anything about it unless he brought in Central legislation compelling the States to have panchayats. He did that before he died.

We were initially anxious about how women with no prior experience would work in the panchayats. But they picked up the work. We told our officers to implement our programme and help the thousands who had been elected as panchayat members to run panchayats, to keep accounts books, and so on. We had had six panchayat elections till then, and every time we won a huge majority.

How has the system evolved between then and now?
Jyoti Basu: Seventy per cent of the people live in villages. We came into government in 1977 at a time when there were huge floods, the likes of which we have never seen. Yet, there was no influx from the villages into Kolkata, as there used to be in the past. No people from rural areas crowded railway stations in search of food or shelter in the city, because the panchayats took up their work very earnestly.

So distress-induced migration to Kolkata stopped.
Jyoti Basu: Yes, for the first time. The panchayat members had already built up great experience in handling such situations of distress. That has been continuing.

We distributed about 11,000 acres of land to agricultural labourers and others engaged in agriculture. There was a Land Ceiling Act enacted by the Congress that they never implemented. We made changes in the Act and distributed land. It was a huge affair. That was the main achievement. We also expanded the municipalities. Now there are 126 of them. Elections to the municipalities were held a few months back and we got 85 out of 126.

What has been the impact of land reform on the lives of the peasantry?
Jyoti Basu: The peasants had been demanding two-thirds of the share of the produce. So a very big movement took place in which we played a major role. Soon after the panchayats were formed, we could not find the land documents. The landlords (jotedars) had distributed land in various names, even to their cats and dogs! The Kisan Sabha helped us in this big struggle for land distribution. They said that if land documents could not be found, it did not matter, as they knew which land belonged to whom. By 1978, we had distributed surplus land and enforced the rule of two-thirds of the share. This was Operation Barga. It was a great success.

We told the police not to behave with the people in the way they did during the Congress period. We told them to respect the people. If a poor or illiterate person came to the thana [police station], they were to be asked to sit down, and their complaints recorded. That worked, and after one or two years they dared not behave with them [the people] as they did under the Congress.

With the improvement in agricultural production, thanks to land reform and the panchayats, peasants have been getting two and three crops on their land. On single-crop land a peasant family found it difficult to manage, and the members had to find other work to supplement the family's income. This has brought a fundamental change in their situation. We were also helped by mass organisations, because we had been saying that the party alone cannot do everything, they cannot bring about change without mass organisations that we must be in contact with. So we have the biggest mass organisation of workers, peasants, middle class organisations, students and teachers.

How do you think the successes in agriculture and industry can be taken forward by the Left Front government?
Jyoti Basu: Well, we are the first amongst the States in agricultural production, social forestry and fisheries. After Uttar Pradesh we have the highest potato production. In industrial development, most of the governments in Delhi discriminated against us. For 40 years there was freight equalisation of steel, iron and coal, the raw material for building factories. This means that States 2,000 miles away pay the same rate for iron and steel as West Bengal. This is all right for five to ten years as other States too need industrialisation. But later on, because of our pressure the Central government did away with that. The Planning Commission concentrated on a few States for industrial development, like Karnataka, Maharasthra and Tamil Nadu, and did not look at States like West Bengal and the small States in the north-eastern region. Industrialists who wanted to set up industry in Bengal were discouraged by the Central government. They were told that the agreement would be signed only if the industry was to be located in a State other than Bengal. So that kind of thing happened for years together.

We adopted an economic policy in which we interacted with industrialists. We told them that it is because of the workers they are making profits. We told them not to look down on the workers, but to discuss production and the objectives of production with them. We also told workers not to give up their right to strike, but to keep that as the last option. They could discuss their problems with the management, and if that failed, the government and the Labour Minister would hear their case. So in many cases strikes were averted because the government worked out tripartite agreements. Now more investments are coming and are likely to come. Our Ministers are going abroad seeking investments.

Our 1994 policy on foreign capital, which we placed before the Assembly, states that if it is in our interest, we do not mind foreign capital investment. Since this is a capitalist system, the private sector has a big role to play.

What is your policy on disinvestment in West Bengal?
Jyoti Basu: We have said that profitable industries should not be disinvested. We have our State sector undertakings. There are some sick industries, abandoned by the owners. Unfortunately, we had to take them over and pay the workers, and try to revive some of them. So we have not given up all the sick industries of which I think there are about 80. Our Industries Minister is trying to see how they can be revived. If they cannot be revived, we are going to sell them if we find buyers.

We are sure that if we come back to power again, in the next five years, we will be the leading State in industrialisation in India.

There has been much discussion recently on your labour policy, especially the approach to be adopted in relation to the Information Technology labour force.
Jyoti Basu: I told workers not to give up their right to strike but to use that as the ultimate weapon. We gave government employees the right to strike, a right that exists nowhere else in India for them. But not a single strike took place in these 29 years. We have conveyed this to the government we are supporting at the Centre. They want to change labour laws, particularly in the IT sector. We are discussing this issue in the party and will come to some decision on this in December when we have our Central Committee meeting. There are so many aspects to this issue - that of foreign investment, the 24-hour work cycle on which the IT sector is based, and all that. This is new to us. The IT industry is growing very fast in the State. We now have 24,000 boys and girls working in the sector.

There is also the question of women working at night. You know there is a law against it. But we have to change that law. Women will have to work at night, although they will have to be careful and security must be provided for them. So this is of course a new area that has to be resolved.

Would you speak about the tensions of having to achieve the many objectives of the Left Front within a bourgeois democratic framework?
Jyoti Basu: There is no tension. We have learnt from experience.

Would you say that the Left Front has provided an alternative model of government for India?
Jyoti Basu: The Left Front government has provided an alternative model of government. We don't hide anything from the people. We tell them why we have been able to implement only part of our programme. Take rural electrification, for example. All villages were to be electrified, but as long as I was there, that did not happen. Those villages that did not get power have a grievance. Negative features are there, but we are looking at them and we do not hide them from the people.

In the health sector, 70 per cent of the people who need treatment come to government hospitals in West Bengal. In no other State in India will you find this. But all hospitals are not running very well. Hundreds of hospitals have been built in the villages, but our young boys and girls do not want to go to the villages. Our financial position is such that now we have to give some jobs to contractors. We do not like this very much. Or, take dearness allowance. We were unable to give dearness allowance for a few years, but now we have started doing that.

Social science scholars have pointed out that one of your important contributions to public administration has been to involve mass organisations of the people in formulating and implementing policy. Would you comment on that?
Jyoti Basu: In 1977, after we were sworn in Ministers we were greeted by a huge gathering of people. They wanted me to speak so I told them in a few words that we would not rule from Writers Building alone where the Ministers sit, but would take the help of the people and the employees, for whom we had been fighting while in the Opposition. We gave the government employees the right to strike. Government employees, who had the largest mass organisation, were with us. We were initially a little anxious about the bureaucracy, but except for a few who didn't like us at all, generally speaking we also got their help.

Government employees are the biggest trade union that we have. They have accepted our programme and we have told them that they must help us implement it. And they have been working very hard. Of course, there are some lazy people who arrive late in the office and go back early and so on, but the organisation itself is looking after that. They have been a great help to us.

What do you see as the reasons for the relatively slow growth of the Communist movement outside of the three States of West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura?
Jyoti Basu: West Bengal is not India. We have three governments in the country. We lost the last elections in Kerala, but I think this time we are going to win. Tripura is a very small State of just 33 lakh people in which lots of refugees have come and the tribals have become a minority. To keep them together is a great achievement. However, in our last party congress we said that to expand we cannot depend only on these three States.

We first thought - at least I thought - that the experience of West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura would result in the automatic expansion of the party in other States. People would be enthused by the experience of these States. But unfortunately that has not happened. So now the new Polit Bureau is chalking out a programme of where we are weak, and how we must expand.
The expansion of the party and of the mass organisations are both needed.

Especially in the Hindi-speaking belt...
Jyoti Basu: Not only in the Hindi belt, but also in the South. We were so strong in Andhra Pradesh, but where are we now? We have become weak in Tamil Nadu, although the party is now picking up. Similarly in Maharashtra, our trade unions were very strong. After the crisis in the textile industries, we are not that strong.

We do not take up problems of the tribals and the Scheduled Castes. The caste system is a reality and we have to deal with it, but very unfortunately we are not there in many places. We told the party congress delegates that they must take up not only all-India problems but must look into the problems of each State, the problems of the people of each State, and of the poorer sections. Even today in the Congress-ruled States, land really has not been distributed and in fact they are changing land reform laws. We said that this must be opposed even though we are supporting the government from outside on the basis of the Common Minimum Programme.

The Congress is not self-critical. I hope they continue for four years. But we have told Sonia Gandhi, the Prime Minister and others that if they are isolated from the people, it is not us who will take their place, but the BJP [Bharatiya Janata Party], a communal party, and communal forces like the RSS [Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh] and VHP [Vishwa Hindu Parishad]. The Congress is a bourgeois landlord party, no doubt, but it is not communal. Earlier, we supported their foreign policy. We told them that if they cannot have a non-aligned policy, they must at least have an independent foreign policy. They do not have that. They are listening to America. Right now they are conducting air exercises with the U.S. and we are opposing it.

What explains the near total absence of women in the leadership of the Left movement, both during the freedom struggle and now? Has this historical weakness impeded the growth of the Communist movement?
Jyoti Basu: Yes, that is our negative feature. We did not pay attention to that. This time in the party congress we have taken note of the importance of women not only in the panchayats but in the party leadership, and in the mass organisation leadership. In fact, our experience about their work in the panchayats is very good. They are very sincere about their work. They work at home, look after the children and then go to the office. So we should take advantage of that and see that the Women's Reservation Bill that the BJP had stalled is passed in the winter session of Parliament.

So you think this weakness is now being overcome.
Jyoti Basu: Yes, I think so, as women are coming more and more into the mass organisations and the leadership of the party.

Has the communist movement in India failed to address effectively the issues of caste and caste-based oppression?
Jyoti Basu: We have not paid sufficient attention to caste. Most of the working people are not organised in trade unions, not even in West Bengal. The party and trade unions together can bring about changes in the political situation and in the hold of caste. There is still untouchability in Tamil Nadu, and we have not looked into that. We are trying to correct all this. Let us see what happens in the next three years.

Now that you have retired from active politics are you able to do things that you did not have time for earlier? Like bringing your memoirs up to date, for example?

Jyoti Basu: At this age and with my health, I cannot do much work. What I used to do earlier I cannot do now. That is why I asked the party to relieve me of all duties, but they refused. They asked me to stay on.
So, man is born, he grows old, he dies. I am happy about West Bengal, Kerala, and Tripura, and I hope that we shall implement the programme our party has taken up for the next three years.

In the introduction to your memoirs you said that you wrote them to help those who are striving to make the world a better place to live in.
Jyoti Basu: Yes, that is our objective, a classless society.

Is the world closer to that goal?
Jyoti Basu: That will take a longer time now, of that I am sure, because of what has happened in the Soviet Union and eastern Europe. The positive side to the situation is that China, which has the largest population in the world, is working towards what the Chinese call Marxism-Leninism with Chinese characteristics. We are studying what they are actually doing. We never thought of that - one country, two systems. They are growing very fast, and although there is still unemployment in China, they look after the unemployed. But people from the villages come to the city, crowding it in search of jobs. They do not hide these problems from the people. Vietnam, which I have visited, is also doing very well.

So, we are still optimistic about our objectives. It will take time. Perhaps not in my lifetime, but later on. We hope for the best.